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Forum - Okay RBE proponents, here is your chance. Convince me. - Page 5

Tags: RBE does not exist, Mars Project, RBE is delusional fantasy [ Add Tags ]

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Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:15
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

I mean, all I gather is that they think previous economies have been the result of greed and corruption. Hence their problems with "synthetic scarcity." And then you can see how easily TZM moves into TVP. Its basically an argument that the powers-that-be created economies for their own sake.

#121 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:20
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Does he include any Austrian school of economics books in his recommended reading?

#122 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:25
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

It wouldn't surprise me. Well, it would. Because that would mean he reads.

#123 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:33
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Maybe Roxanne reads to him while she feeds him tapioca pudding.

#124 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:50
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original

maybe this will help with a good definition of RBE

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The+Venus+Project

1. The Venus Project 33 up, 6 down
buy the venus project mugs, tshirts and magnets
The last hope for humanity as a whole. The Venus Project (TVP) presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture. Simply stated, a resource-based economy that uses our existing resources instead of money and provides an equitable method of distributing these resources in the most efficient manner for the entire population. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of debt or servitude. Watching the free online movie: Zeitgeist Addendum will provide you a better detailed understanding of what The Venus Project truly has to offer www.thevenusproject.com www.thezeitgeistmovement.com www.zeitgeistmovie.com
The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project

"Money is just another form of physical slavery" -Jacque Fresco - Founder of TVP

"No one is born with greed, prejudice, bigotry, patriotism and hatred; these are all learned behavior patterns." - Jacque Fresco

-----------

Not sure that helped much. I'm going to have to go with what Matt said on a post, "Money is only a bad thing when you don't have any.".

#125 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:54
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

""No one is born with greed, prejudice, bigotry, patriotism and hatred; these are all learned behavior patterns." - Jacque Fresco"

Why is patriotism in there? Patriotism is not inherently bad.

Methinks I see an agenda.

#126 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:57
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Why do i hate jacque fresco ?

It is because I learnt to hate the fucker

#127 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 22:57
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Fresco must really like being a slave considering he sells DVD packs for 300 dollars.

#128 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 23:47
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Level: 12
CS Original

I found this photo of different sects of libertarianism:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZIDZKrVb3LQ/SsJBqkWZkjI/AAAAAAAADRo/LId9zHOL-xs/s400/libertarianism.gif</p>

"natural resources are common good" falls under traditional anarchism.

#129 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Jun 30, 2010 - 01:19
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Level: 0
CS Original

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/705</p>

> One thing Homo sapiens does that Homo neanderthalensis shows no sign of having
> done is trade.

> To see if trade might be enough to account for the dominance of Homo sapiens,
> Dr Shogren and his colleagues created a computer model of population growth
> that attempts to capture the relevant variables for each species.

> According to the model, this arrangement resulted in everyone getting more meat,
> which drove up fertility and thus increased the population. Since the supply of meat
> was finite, that left less for Neanderthals, and their population declined.

Perhaps the lack of desire to trade and barter (aka use money..) is due to some neanderthal genes lurking in TZM members family tree..

I'm also reminded of this:

http://www.scientificblogging.com/science_20/earth_day_question_who_were_you_10000_bc</p>

From what I know RBEF are keen to focus on developing software for resource management within projects. (aka who gets what money for which project.)

RBOSE are from what I gather, working on collaborative software tools, using what might be best described as an open source approach.

Neither are what I would classify as specifically RBE focused, as I reckon their work could be used for many different styles of economy models.

#130 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jul 02, 2010 - 10:52
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

I've started a multi-installment critque of RBE. Its not largely historical, but I will be examining some quantitative aspects later on. Anyway, read if you want:

http://falknerslegend.tumblr.com/post/761903644/a-baseless-theory-part-1</p>

I am maintaining my assesment from this thread on why RBE is not Marxism, but you'll see that I identify a Marxist foundation in something TVP writes. These pieces will focus on TVPs own words as well as TZM involvement.

#131 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
MuertosPosted: Jul 02, 2010 - 11:05
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Paid Disinformation Blogger

Level: 14
CS Original

Good job Falkner. Your argument makes a lot of sense.

#132 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 02, 2010 - 11:20
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Great article.

#133 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 31, 2010 - 18:03
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original
#134 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Vasper85Posted: Oct 11, 2010 - 18:28
(0)
 

Level: 1
CS Original

Hi guys, check this link on the Mars Project, 3 parts but informative in a humorous way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5HNXNXUzz8

#135 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Vasper85Posted: Oct 11, 2010 - 18:46
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Level: 1
CS Original

I was just wondering if anyone read Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley? He states that marxisms was devised to fit a specific period when you had two classes, workers and owners, when by the 1890's was already started to break up with the introduction of automation (which reduce the human labour monopoly) and corporate structure of managers and shareholders (which weakened the owner structure). Automation also produced great abundance which by necessity spread out consumption to include the workers, raising their standard of living making them less likely to rise up and at the same time reducing the power of the owners by dispering it among shareholders making them less of a target to rise up against. Carroll basically said that by the time Karl Marx finished his theory for public consumption the environment that it was written for was already changing to a environment that was less fertile to these ideas. In other words it was obsolete. Which explains why it was imposed by force in the USSR, rather than evolving naturally.

#136 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Edward L WinstonPosted: Oct 11, 2010 - 19:09
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President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho: porn star and five-time ultimate smackdown wrestling champion!

Level: 150
CS Original

@TeeZedem

I have, and I agree with your assessment. I think also a lot of people think of his work outside of the context it was written, which is in that of the cold war. I don't think many people, especially conspiracy theorists and neoconservatives, really understand how different the world is now without the USSR.

#137 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Oct 11, 2010 - 19:52
(0)
 

Level: 6
CS Original

Carroll basically said that by the time Karl Marx finished his theory for public consumption the environment that it was written for was already changing to a environment that was less fertile to these ideas.

If you ignore the fact that Marx never finished the Capital, and that the emergence of the third class kinda decreased the whole importance of his theories of value - the increased labor rights in Europe kinda lowered the power of the "class struggle" mindset of the times before, and so also the popularity of Marx and his followers.

It's weird that the whole "the people who work the factories should own them" - which is really just the idea that automation should benefit the people instead of the minority of owners, wasn't really outgrown, but violently suppressed in the USA, turned upside down in the USSR and either replaced by nationalism or squashed in the war in Western Europe...and every single action that came past that is probably mentioned in some of Chomsky's books.

It's sad that there was no effort whatsoever to dive into economic theory from a fundamentally scientific standpoint after Marx - the foundations of market theory haven't really been touched since Keynes, and even he did consider market failure a practical constraint that needed state intervention, not a redesign of economic theory.

I kinda hoped TZM would be into that kind of thing - a scientific understanding of production, distribution in different settings, following different rules & ideals, but they're just as dogmatic as the good ol' capitalists.

#138 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Oct 12, 2010 - 01:00
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Level: 0
CS Original

> "the people who work the factories should own them"

Makes me think of employee profit sharing companies, as I reckon that is the way to go as a step in the right direction.

Thoughts ?

#139 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Oct 12, 2010 - 07:20
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Level: 12
CS Original

Redistribution of wealth is a simple attempt at solving a complex problem.

#140 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Oct 12, 2010 - 11:20
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Level: 0
CS Original

But is it likely to be a successful one.. ?

#141 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Oct 12, 2010 - 11:34
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

I'm okay with the Nanos' of the world being homeless and hungry. Mostly because I don't give a shit and I go to work every day so I don't end up like them.

#142 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Monst3rmindPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 11:48
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Level: 0
CS Original

Hello to all,
I would like to start a friendly debate with Falkir for start, I think it will be quite interesting and entertaining, then we can engage other people arguments.

I read your article on RBE (baseless theory), which I found I bit more propagandistic than I would like, but that’s ok, its not easy to make a propaganda free statemenst, I can’t make it either. At first I admit that I found it pretty nice, but when debunking it, it seemed… well, quite poor (?). I hope that the absence of a real time debate over my counter arguments is the reason for that, as it seems that this document is the most serious one (that’s a compliment!)

I have to state that I am not a Zeitgeist follower, neither a VP follower. I am interested in RBE exclusive.

So… I would like to ask all other members to limit the debate in just me and falkir, sending pms is ok, I don’t know if that is ok with the rules of this forum, supposing it is and supposing that you are active (Falkir), I am giving it a go!

===

The title: RBE is a baseless theory.

Are you being poetic or are you really into this?
If you are being poetic then the title is propaganda.
If you are not, then I believe you are false.
That is because RBE shares much with Marxist theory which is not a “baseless theory”.
If you believe that Marxism is a “baseless theory” then you must know:

There is no such thing as a “baseless theory”!

Every theory accepts certain axioms: Marxism does, capitalism does, geometry does, even logic is based on axioms. Axioms are necessary tools of thinking, and are essential for a theory. A theory cannot exist without axioms. If there are no axioms then it is not a theory. It’s a fact! (Supposing it is not false)

*Axiom is a statement that cannot be verified or rejected because of knowledge limitations.
*geometry axiom is that: two parallel keep steady distance and never meet (Euklides, the man that invented geometry had written: “I pray to god for that to be true”!)
*The logic axiom is that: something cannot “be” and “not be” at the same time. (Aristotle never admit it to be an axiom though!)
*Some Capitalism axioms were (they are not anymore) that production must raise infinite, humanity must dominate nature and profit is a motive for labor.

What there is instead is a “false theory”. A false theory is a theory that use or produce statements that are not true.

If you are ok with these then we should find the false arguments of RBE. If you are not okay with it, give me your arguments.

#143 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 12:24
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

"So… I would like to ask all other members to limit the debate in just me and falkir"

lol good luck with that.

Sorry, no.

#144 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 12:25
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Look, you expose exactly what I mean by RBE being a "baseless theory" implicitly. I agree that RBE shares a great deal with Marxism and even Socialism, but as you will see from VTV's response, these similarities are outright denied by RBE. Indeed, Marxism is a formulated program, but it has some glaring deficiencies. I term RBE "baseless" because its formulation has either refused its genealogical ties to preexisting philosophies, or it has yet to recognize it. This, in turn, makes it prone to a great deal of criticism and has further resulted in the theory not being well formulated or open to meaningful discourse. I'd also question you against the use of "propaganda" consider that I am not a state power, nor am I willfully distorted the truth to change anyones mind. At most you can accuse me of bias. As for the facts against RBE, they are everywhere on these message boards. What I set out to do was show that RBE had genealogical ties to better philosophical programs and that the theory itself is inept at either addressing or recognizing these ties. When I say "baseless" i literally mean that it does not have a sufficient base from which to draw on. RBE is, by all accounts, riddled with holes both in logic and its grasp of social and technological realities.

#145 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Global Elite InternPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 12:29
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

@Monst3rmind: "I have to state that I am not a Zeitgeist follower, neither a VP follower. I am interested in RBE exclusive."

Is there a difference?

Speaking of differences, there is absolutely none between an RBE and the soviet system where the economy was centrally planned by engineers and every problem in society was technical.

Russians today will tell you that everything Marx said about communism was wrong but everything he said about capitalism was right.

Socialism doesn't work. And capitalism doesn't work. What works is a mix of the two because they keep a check on each other. That is why every economy on the planet is mixed (except N. Korea).

#146 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 12:42
(0)
 

Level: 6
CS Original

That is because RBE shares much with Marxist theory which is not a “baseless theory”.

It is when you interpret it as a solution for economic problems. Marxism is fairly good at describing what the problem with capitalism is, and that's a good start, considering that most books looking for economic progress fail to do even that.

But Marx never went beyond that, he died before finishing das Kapital.

If you want to see some form of new economic system, you'll have to go from analyzing what is wrong to discovering what is better, and neither the Marxists nor TVP have been able to do so. It all relies on illogical band-aids like blank slate theory or overconfidence in technological progress.

#147 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 13:00
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

So basically Marxism provides criticism and no viable alternatives to what its criticizing.

Hey, kinda like RBE.

#148 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Global Elite InternPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 13:04
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

No alternatives? Didn't you see their plan to use tonka toys to build plastic apartment buildings?

#149 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Dec 07, 2010 - 13:06
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Key word is: viable.

#150 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]